Ath。Werewenotsayingthatonsuchoccasionsthesoulsofthedrinkersbecomelikeironheatedinthefire，andgrowsofterandyounger，andareeasilymouldedbyhimwhoknowshowtoeducateandfashionthem，justaswhentheywereyoung，andthatthisfashionerofthemisthesamewhoprescribedfortheminthedaysoftheiryouth，viz。，thegoodlegislator；andthatheoughttoenactlawsofthebanquet，which，whenamanisconfident，bold，andimpudent，andunwillingtowaithisturnandhavehisshareofsilenceandspeech，anddrinkingandmusic，willchangehischaracterintotheopposite-suchlawsaswillinfuseintohimajustandnoblefear，whichwilltakeuparmsattheapproachofinsolence，beingthatdivinefearwhichwehavecalledreverenceandshame？
Cle。True。
Ath。Andtheguardiansoftheselawsandfellow-workerswiththemarethecalmandsobergeneralsofthedrinkers；andwithouttheirhelpthereisgreaterdifficultyinfightingagainstdrinkthaninfightingagainstenemieswhenthecommanderofanarmyisnothimselfcalm；andhewhoisunwillingtoobeythemandthecommandersofDionysiacfeastswhoaremorethansixtyyearsofage，shallsufferadisgraceasgreatashewhodisobeysmilitaryleaders，orevengreater。
Cle。Right。
Ath。If，then，drinkingandamusementwereregulatedinthisway，wouldnotthecompanionsofourrevelsbeimproved？theywouldpartbetterfriendsthantheywere，andnot，asnowenemies。Theirwholeintercoursewouldberegulatedbylawandobservantofit，andthesoberwouldbetheleadersofthedrunken。
Cle。Ithinksotoo，ifdrinkingwereregulatedasyoupropose。
Ath。LetusnotthensimplycensurethegiftofDionysusasbadandunfittobereceivedintotheState。Forwinehasmanyexcellences，andonepre-eminentone，aboutwhichthereisadifficultyinspeakingtothemany，fromafearoftheirmisconceivingandmisunderstandingwhatissaid。
Cle。Towhatdoyourefer？
Ath。Thereisatraditionorstory，whichhassomehowcreptabouttheworld，thatDionysuswasrobbedofhiswitsbyhisstepmotherHere，andthatoutofrevengeheinspiresBacchicfuriesanddancingmadnessesinothers；forwhichreasonhegavemenwine。SuchtraditionsconcerningtheGodsIleavetothosewhothinkthattheymaybesafelyuttered；Ionlyknowthatnoanimalatbirthismatureorperfectinintelligence；andintheintermediateperiod，inwhichhehasnotyetacquiredhisownpropersense，heragesandroarswithoutrhymeorreason；andwhenhehasoncegotonhislegshejumpsaboutwithoutrhymeorreason；andthis，asyouwillremember，hasbeenalreadysaidbyustobetheoriginofmusicandgymnastic。
Cle。Tobesure，Iremember。
Ath。Anddidwenotsaythatthesenseofharmonyandrhythmsprangfromthisbeginningamongmen，andthatApolloandtheMusesandDionysusweretheGodswhomwehadtothankforthem？
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Theotherstoryimpliedthatwinewasgivenmanoutofrevenge，andinordertomakehimmad；butourpresentdoctrine，onthecontrary，is，thatwinewasgivenhimasabalm，andinordertoimplantmodestyinthesoul，andhealthandstrengthinthebody。
Cle。That，Stranger，ispreciselywhatwassaid。
Ath。Thenhalfthesubjectmaynowbeconsideredtohavebeendiscussed；shallweproceedtotheconsiderationoftheotherhalf？
Cle。Whatistheotherhalf，andhowdoyoudividethesubject？
Ath。Thewholechoralartisalsoinourviewthewholeofeducation；andofthisart，rhythmsandharmoniesformthepartwhichhastodowiththevoice。
Cle。Yes。
Ath。Themovementofthebodyhasrhythmincommonwiththemovementofthevoice，butgestureispeculiartoit，whereassongissimplythemovementofthevoice。
Cle。Mosttrue。
Ath。Andthesoundofthevoicewhichreachesandeducatesthesoul，wehaveventuredtotermmusic。
Cle。Wewereright。
Ath。Andthemovementofthebody，whenregardedasanamusement，wetermeddancing；butwhenextendedandpursuedwithaviewtotheexcellenceofthebody，thisscientifictrainingmaybecalledgymnastic。
Cle。Exactly。
Ath。Music，whichwasonehalfofthechoralart，maybesaidtohavebeencompletelydiscussed。Shallweproceedtotheotherhalfornot？Whatwouldyoulike？
Cle。Mygoodfriend，whenyouaretalkingwithaCretanandLacedaemonian，andwehavediscussedmusicandnotgymnastic，whatanswerareeitherofuslikelytomaketosuchanenquiry？
Ath。Anansweriscontainedinyourquestion；andIunderstandandacceptwhatyousaynotonlyasananswer，butalsoasacommandtoproceedwithgymnastic。
Cle。Youquiteunderstandme；doasyousay。
Ath。Iwill；andtherewillnotbeanydifficultyinspeakingintelligiblytoyouaboutasubjectwithwhichbothofyouarefarmorefamiliarthanwithmusic。
Cle。Therewillnot。
Ath。Isnottheoriginofgymnastics，too，tobesoughtinthetendencytorapidmotionwhichexistsinallanimals；man，asweweresaying，havingattainedthesenseofrhythm，createdandinventeddancing；andmelodyarousingandawakeningrhythm，bothunitedformedthechoralart？
Cle。Verytrue。
Ath。Andonepartofthissubjecthasbeenalreadydiscussedbyus，andtherestillremainsanothertobediscussed？
Cle。Exactly。
Ath。Ihavefirstafinalwordtoaddtomydiscourseaboutdrink，ifyouwillallowmetodoso。
Cle。Whatmorehaveyoutosay？
Ath。Ishouldsaythatifacityseriouslymeanstoadoptthepracticeofdrinkingunderdueregulationandwithaviewtotheenforcementoftemperance，andinlikemanner，andonthesameprinciple，willallowofotherpleasures，designingtogainthevictoryovertheminthiswayallofthemmaybeused。ButiftheStatemakesdrinkinganamusementonly，andwhoeverlikesmaydrinkwheneverhelikes，andwithwhomhelikes，andaddtothisanyotherindulgences，Ishallneveragreeorallowthatthiscityorthismanshouldpractisedrinking。IwouldgofurtherthantheCretansandLacedaemonians，andamdisposedrathertothelawoftheCarthaginians，thatnoonewhileheisonacampaignshouldbeallowedtotastewineatall，butthatheshoulddrinkwaterduringallthattime，andthatinthecitynoslave，maleorfemale，shouldeverdrinkwine；andthatnomagistratesshoulddrinkduringtheiryearofoffice，norshouldpilotsofvesselsorjudgeswhileondutytastewineatall，noranyonewhoisgoingtoholdaconsultationaboutanymatterofimportance；norinthedaytimeatall，unlessinconsequenceofexerciseorasmedicine；noragainatnight，whenanyone，eithermanorwoman，ismindedtogetchildren。Therearenumberlessothercasesalsoinwhichthosewhohavegoodsenseandgoodlawsoughtnottodrinkwine，sothatifwhatIsayistrue，nocitywillneedmanyvineyards。Theirhusbandryandtheirwayoflifeingeneralwillfollowanappointedorder，andtheircultivationofthevinewillbethemostlimitedandtheleastcommonoftheiremployments。Andthis，Stranger，shallbethecrownofmydiscourseaboutwine，ifyouagree。
Cle。Excellent：weagree。
BOOKIII
AthenianStranger。Enoughofthis。Andwhat，then，istoberegardedastheoriginofgovernment？Willnotamanbeabletojudgeofitbestfromapointofviewinwhichhemaybeholdtheprogressofstatesandtheirtransitionstogoodorevil？
Cleinias。Whatdoyoumean？
Ath。Imeanthathemightwatchthemfromthepointofviewoftime，andobservethechangeswhichtakeplaceinthemduringinfiniteages。
Cle。Howso？
Ath。Why，doyouthinkthatyoucanreckonthetimewhichhaselapsedsincecitiesfirstexistedandmenwerecitizensofthem？
Cle。Hardly。
Ath。Butaresurethatitmustbevastandincalculable？
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Andhavenotthousandsandthousandsofcitiescomeintobeingduringthisperiodandasmanyperished？Andhasnoteachofthemhadeveryformofgovernmentmanytimesover，nowgrowinglarger，nowsmaller，andagainimprovingordeclining？
Cle。Tobesure。
Ath。Letusendeavourtoascertainthecauseofthesechanges；forthatwillprobablyexplainthefirstoriginanddevelopmentofformsofgovernment。
Cle。Verygood。Youshallendeavourtoimpartyourthoughtstous，andwewillmakeanefforttounderstandyou。
Ath。Doyoubelievethatthereisanytruthinancienttraditions？
Cle。Whattraditions？
Ath。Thetraditionsaboutthemanydestructionsofmankindwhichhavebeenoccasionedbydelugesandpestilences，andinmanyotherways，andofthesurvivalofaremnant？
Cle。Everyoneisdisposedtobelievethem。
Ath。Letusconsideroneofthem，thatwhichwascausedbythefamousdeluge。
Cle。Whatarewetoobserveaboutit？
Ath。Imeantosaythatthosewhothenescapedwouldonlybehillshepherds-smallsparksofthehumanracepreservedonthetopsofmountains。
Cle。Clearly。
Ath。Suchsurvivorswouldnecessarilybeunacquaintedwiththeartsandthevariousdeviceswhicharesuggestedtothedwellersincitiesbyinterestorambition，andwithallthewrongswhichtheycontriveagainstoneanother。
Cle。Verytrue。
Ath。Letussuppose，then，thatthecitiesintheplainandonthesea-coastwereutterlydestroyedatthattime。
Cle。Verygood。
Ath。Wouldnotallimplementshavethenperishedandeveryotherexcellentinventionofpoliticaloranyothersortofwisdomhaveutterlydisappeared？
Cle。Why，yes，myfriend；andifthingshadalwayscontinuedastheyareatpresentordered，howcouldanydiscoveryhaveeverbeenmadeevenintheleastparticular？Foritisevidentthattheartswereunknownduringtenthousandtimestenthousandyears。AndnomorethanathousandortwothousandyearshaveelapsedsincethediscoveriesofDaedalus，OrpheusandPalamedes-sinceMarsyasandOlympusinventedmusic，andAmphionthelyre-nottospeakofnumberlessotherinventionswhicharebutofyesterday。
Ath。Haveyouforgotten，Cleinias，thenameofafriendwhoisreallyofyesterday？
Cle。IsupposethatyoumeanEpimenides。