AndtothatIrejoin：-Omyfather，didyounotwishmetoliveashappilyaspossible？AndyetyoualsoneverceasedtellingmethatI
shouldliveasjustlyaspossible。Now，herethegiveroftherule，whetherhebelegislatororfather，willbeinadilemma，andwillinvainendeavourtobeconsistentwithhimself。Butifheweretodeclarethatthejustestlifeisalsothehappiest，everyonehearinghimwouldenquire，ifIamnotmistaken，whatisthatgoodandnobleprincipleinlifewhichthelawapproves，andwhichissuperiortopleasure。Forwhatgoodcanthejustmanhavewhichisseparatedfrompleasure？Shallwesaythatgloryandfame，comingfromGodsandmen，thoughgoodandnoble，areneverthelessunpleasant，andinfamypleasant？Certainlynot，sweetlegislator。Orshallwesaythatthenot-doingofwrongandtherebeingnowrongdoneisgoodandhonourable，althoughthereisnopleasureinit，andthatthedoingwrongispleasant，butevilandbase？
Cle。Impossible。
Ath。Theviewwhichidentifiesthepleasantandthepleasantandthejustandthegoodandthenoblehasanexcellentmoralandreligioustendency。Andtheoppositeviewismostatvariancewiththedesignsofthelegislator，andis，inhisopinion，infamous；fornoone，ifhecanhelp，willbepersuadedtodothatwhichgiveshimmorepainthanpleasure。Butasdistantprospectsareapttomakeusdizzy，especiallyinchildhood，thelegislatorwilltrytopurgeawaythedarknessandexhibitthetruth；hewillpersuadethecitizens，insomewayorother，bycustomsandpraisesandwords，thatjustandunjustareshadowsonly，andthatinjustice，whichseemsopposedtojustice，whencontemplatedbytheunjustandevilmanappearspleasantandthejustmostunpleasant；butthatfromthejustman’spointofview，theveryoppositeistheappearanceofbothofthem。
Cle。True。
Ath。Andwhichmaybesupposedtobethetruerjudgment-thatoftheinferiororofthebettersoul？
Cle。Surely，thatofthebettersoul。
Ath。Thentheunjustlifemustnotonlybemorebaseanddepraved，butalsomoreunpleasantthanthejustandholylife？
Cle。Thatseemstobeimpliedinthepresentargument。
Ath。Andevensupposingthiswereotherwise，andnotastheargumenthasproven，stillthelawgiver，whoisworthanything，ifheeverventurestotellalietotheyoungfortheirgood，couldnotinventamoreusefulliethanthis，oronewhichwillhaveabettereffectinmakingthemdowhatisright，notoncompulsionbutvoluntarily。
Cle。Truth，Stranger，isanoblethingandalasting，butathingofwhichmenarehardtobepersuaded。
Ath。AndyetthestoryoftheSidonianCadmus，whichissoimprobable，hasbeenreadilybelieved，andalsoinnumerableothertales。
Cle。Whatisthatstory？
Ath。Thestoryofarmedmenspringingupafterthesowingofteeth，whichthelegislatormaytakeasaproofthathecanpersuadethemindsoftheyoungofanything；sothathehasonlytoreflectandfindoutwhatbeliefwillbeofthegreatestpublicadvantage，andthenuseallhiseffortstomakethewholecommunityutteroneandthesamewordintheirsongsandtalesanddiscoursesalltheirlifelong。
Butifyoudonotagreewithme，thereisnoreasonwhyyoushouldnotargueontheotherside。
Cle。Idonotseethatanyargumentcanfairlyberaisedbyeitherofusagainstwhatyouarenowsaying。
Ath。ThenextsuggestionwhichIhavetoofferis，thatallourthreechorusesshallsingtotheyoungandtendersoulsofchildren，recitingintheirstrainsallthenoblethoughtsofwhichwehavealreadyspoken，orareabouttospeak；andthesumofthemshallbe，thatthelifewhichisbytheGodsdeemedtobethehappiestisalsothebest；-weshallaffirmthistobeamostcertaintruth；andthemindsofouryoungdiscipleswillbemorelikelytoreceivethesewordsofoursthananyotherswhichwemightaddresstothem。
Cle。Iassenttowhatyousay。
Ath。Firstwillenterintheirnaturalorderthesacredchoircomposedofchildren，whichistosinglustilytheheaven-taughtlaytothewholecity。Nextwillfollowthechoirofyoungmenundertheageofthirty，whowillcallupontheGodPaeantotestifytothetruthoftheirwords，andwillprayhimtobegracioustotheyouthandtoturntheirhearts。Thirdly，thechoirofeldermen，whoarefromthirtytosixtyyearsofage，willalsosing。Thereremainthosewhoaretoooldtosing，andtheywilltellstories，illustratingthesamevirtues，aswiththevoiceofanoracle。
Cle。Whoarethosewhocomposethethirdchoir，Stranger？forIdonotclearlyunderstandwhatyoumeantosayaboutthem。
Ath。AndyetalmostallthatIhavebeensayinghassaidwithaviewtothem。
Cle。Willyoutrytobealittleplainer？
Ath。Iwasspeakingatthecommencementofourdiscourse，asyouwillremember，ofthefierynatureofyoungcreatures：Isaidthattheywereunabletokeepquieteitherinlimborvoice，andthattheycalledoutandjumpedaboutinadisorderlymanner；andthatnootheranimalattainedtoanyperceptionoforder，butmanonly。Nowtheorderofmotioniscalledrhythm，andtheorderofthevoice，inwhichhighandlowaredulymingled，iscalledharmony；andbothtogetheraretermedchoricsong。AndIsaidthattheGodshadpityonus，andgaveusApolloandtheMusestobeourplayfellowsandleadersinthedance；andDionysus，asIdaresaythatyouwillremember，wasthethird。
Cle。Iquiteremember。
Ath。ThusfarIhavespokenofthechorusofApolloandtheMuses，andIhavestilltospeakoftheremainingchorus，whichisthatofDionysus。
Cle。Howisthatarranged？Thereissomethingstrange，atanyrateonfirsthearing，inaDionysiacchorusofoldmen，ifyoureallymeanthatthosewhoareabovethirty，andmaybefifty，orfromfiftytosixtyyearsofage，aretodanceinhishonour。
Ath。Verytrue；andthereforeitmustbeshownthatthereisgoodreasonfortheproposal。
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Areweagreedthusfar？
Cle。Aboutwhat？
Ath。Thateverymanandboy，slaveandfree，bothsexes，andthewholecity，shouldneverceasecharmingthemselveswiththestrainsofwhichwehavespoken；andthatthereshouldbeeverysortofchangeandvariationoftheminordertotakeawaytheeffectofsameness，sothatthesingersmayalwaysreceivepleasurefromtheirhymns，andmayneverwearyofthem？
Cle。Everyonewillagree。
Ath。Where，then，willthatbestpartofourcitywhich，byreasonofageandintelligence，hasthegreatestinfluence，singthesefairestofstrains，whicharetodosomuchgood？Shallwebesofoolishastoletthemoffwhowouldgiveusthemostbeautifulandalsothemostusefulofsongs？
Cle。But，saystheargument，wecannotletthemoff。
Ath。Thenhowcanwecarryoutourpurposewithdecorum？Willthisbetheway？
Cle。What？
Ath。Whenamanisadvancinginyears，heisafraidandreluctanttosing；-hehasnopleasureinhisownperformances；andifcompulsionisused，hewillbemoreandmoreashamed，theolderandmorediscreethegrows；-isnotthistrue？
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Well，andwillhenotbeyetmoreashamedifhehastostandupandsinginthetheatretoamixedaudience？-andifmoreoverwhenheisrequiredtodoso，liketheotherchoirswhocontendforprizes，andhavebeentrainedunderasingingmaster，heispinchedandhungry，hewillcertainlyhaveafeelingofshameanddiscomfortwhichwillmakehimveryunwillingtoexhibit。
Cle。Nodoubt。
Ath。How，then，shallwereassurehim，andgethimtosing？Shallwebeginbyenactingthatboysshallnottastewineatalluntiltheyareeighteenyearsofage；wewilltellthemthatfiremustnotbepoureduponfire，whetherinthebodyorinthesoul，untiltheybegintogotowork-thisisaprecautionwhichhastobetakenagainsttheexcitablenessofyouth；-afterwardstheymaytastewineinmoderationuptotheageofthirty，butwhileamanisyoungheshouldabstainaltogetherfromintoxicationandfromexcessofwine；when，atlength，hehasreachedfortyyears，afterdinneratapublicmess，hemayinvitenotonlytheotherGods，butDionysusaboveall，tothemysteryandfestivityoftheeldermen，makinguseofthewinewhichhehasgivenmentolightenthesournessofoldage；thatinagewemayrenewouryouth，andforgetoursorrows；andalsoinorderthatthenatureofthesoul，likeironmeltedinthefire，maybecomesofterandsomoreimpressible。Inthefirstplace，willnotanyonewhoisthusmellowedbemorereadyandlessashamedtosing-Idonotsaybeforealargeaudience，butbeforeamoderatecompany；noryetamongstrangers，butamonghisfamiliars，and，aswehaveoftensaid，tochant，andtoenchant？
Cle。Hewillbefarmoreready。
Ath。Therewillbenoimproprietyinourusingsuchamethodofpersuadingthemtojoinwithusinsong。
Cle。Noneatall。
Ath。Andwhatstrainwilltheysing，andwhatmusewilltheyhymn？
Thestrainshouldclearlybeonesuitabletothem。
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Andwhatstrainissuitableforheroes？Shalltheysingachoricstrain？
Cle。Truly，Stranger，weofCreteandLacedaemonknownostrainotherthanthatwhichwehavelearntandbeenaccustomedtosinginourchorus。
Ath。Idaresay；foryouhaveneveracquiredtheknowledgeofthemostbeautifulkindofsong，inyourmilitarywayoflife，whichismodelledafterthecamp，andisnotlikethatofdwellersincities；
andyouhaveyouryoungmenherdingandfeedingtogetherlikeyoungcolts。Noonetakeshisownindividualcoltanddragshimawayfromhisfellowsagainsthiswill，ragingandfoaming，andgiveshimagroomtoattendtohimalone，andtrainsandrubshimdownprivately，andgiveshimthequalitiesineducationwhichwillmakehimnotonlyagoodsoldier，butalsoagovernorofastateandofcities。Suchanone，aswesaidatfirst，wouldbeagreaterwarriorthanheofwhomTyrtaeussings；andhewouldhonourcourageeverywhere，butalwaysasthefourth，andnotasthefirstpartofvirtue，eitherinindividualsorstates。
Cle。Oncemore，Stranger，Imustcomplainthatyoudepreciateourlawgivers。
Ath。Notintentionally，ifatall，mygoodfriend；butwhithertheargumentleads，thitherletusfollow；foriftherebeindeedsomestrainofsongmorebeautifulthanthatofthechorusesorthepublictheatres，Ishouldliketoimpartittothosewho，aswesay，areashamedofthese，andwanttohavethebest。
Cle。Certainly。