Ath。But，mydearfriend，letusdistinguishbetweendifferentcases，andnotbehastyinformingajudgment：Onewayofconsideringthequestionwillbetoimagineafestivalatwhichthereareentertainmentsofallsorts，includinggymnastic，musical，andequestriancontests：thecitizensareassembled；prizesareoffered，andproclamationismadethatanyonewholikesmayenterthelists，andthatheistobearthepalmwhogivesthemostpleasuretothespectators-thereistobenoregulationaboutthemannerhow；
buthewhoismostsuccessfulingivingpleasureistobecrownedvictor，anddeemedtobethepleasantestofthecandidates：Whatislikelytobetheresultofsuchaproclamation？
Cle。Inwhatrespect？
Ath。Therewouldbevariousexhibitions：oneman，likeHomer，willexhibitarhapsody，anotheraperformanceonthelute；onewillhaveatragedy，andanotheracomedy。Norwouldtherebeanythingastonishinginsomeoneimaginingthathecouldgaintheprizebyexhibitingapuppet-show。Supposethesecompetitorstomeet，andnottheseonly，butinnumerableothersaswellcanyoutellmewhooughttobethevictor？
Cle。Idonotseehowanyonecanansweryou，orpretendtoknow，unlesshehasheardwithhisownearstheseveralcompetitors；thequestionisabsurd。
Ath。Well，then，ifneitherofyoucananswer，shallIanswerthisquestionwhichyoudeemsoabsurd？
Cle。Byallmeans。
Ath。Ifverysmallchildrenaretodeterminethequestion，theywilldecideforthepuppetshow。
Cle。Ofcourse。
Ath。Theolderchildrenwillbeadvocatesofcomedy；educatedwomen，andyoungmen，andpeopleingeneral，willfavourtragedy。
Cle。Verylikely。
Ath。AndIbelievethatweoldmenwouldhavethegreatestpleasureinhearingarhapsodistrecitewelltheIliadandOdyssey，oroneoftheHesiodicpoems，andwouldawardthevictorytohim。But，whowouldreallybethevictor？-thatisthequestion。
Cle。Yes。
Ath。ClearlyyouandIwillhavetodeclarethatthosewhomweoldmenadjudgevictorsoughttowin；forourwaysarefarandawaybetterthananywhichatpresentexistanywhereintheworld。
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。ThusfarItooshouldagreewiththemany，thattheexcellenceofmusicistobemeasuredbypleasure。Butthepleasuremustnotbethatofchancepersons；thefairestmusicisthatwhichdelightsthebestandbesteducated，andespeciallythatwhichdelightstheonemanwhoispre-eminentinvirtueandeducation。Andthereforethejudgesmustbemenofcharacter，fortheywillrequirebothwisdomandcourage；thetruejudgemustnotdrawhisinspirationfromthetheatre，noroughthetobeunnervedbytheclamourofthemanyandhisownincapacity；noragain，knowingthetruth，oughthethroughcowardiceandunmanlinesscarelesslytodeliveralyingjudgment，withtheverysamelipswhichhavejustappealedtotheGodsbeforehejudged。Heissittingnotasthediscipleofthetheatre，but，inhisproperplace，astheirinstructor，andheoughttobetheenemyofallpanderingtothepleasureofthespectators。TheancientandcommoncustomofHellas，whichstillprevailsinItalyandSicily，didcertainlyleavethejudgmenttothebodyofspectators，whodeterminedthevictorbyshowofhands。Butthiscustomhasbeenthedestructionofthepoets；fortheyarenowinthehabitofcomposingwithaviewtopleasethebadtasteoftheirjudges，andtheresultisthatthespectatorsinstructthemselves；-andalsoithasbeentheruinofthetheatre；theyoughttobehavingcharactersputbeforethembetterthantheirown，andsoreceivingahigherpleasure，butnowbytheirownacttheoppositeresultfollows。Whatinferenceistobedrawnfromallthis？ShallItellyou？
Cle。What？
Ath。Theinferenceatwhichwearriveforthethirdorfourthtimeis，thateducationistheconstraininganddirectingofyouthtowardsthatrightreason，whichthelawaffirms，andwhichtheexperienceoftheeldestandbesthasagreedtobetrulyright。Inorder，then，thatthesoulofthechildmaynotbehabituatedtofeeljoyandsorrowinamanneratvariancewiththelaw，andthosewhoobeythelaw，butmayratherfollowthelawandrejoiceandsorrowatthesamethingsastheaged-inorder，Isay，toproducethiseffect，chantsappeartohavebeeninvented，whichreallyenchant，andaredesignedtoimplantthatharmonyofwhichwespeak。And，becausethemindofthechildisincapableofenduringserioustraining，theyarecalledplaysandsongs，andareperformedinplay；justaswhenmenaresickandailingintheirbodies，theirattendantsgivethemwholesomedietinpleasantmeatsanddrinks，butunwholesomedietindisagreeablethings，inorderthattheymaylearn，astheyought，toliketheone，andtodisliketheother。Andsimilarlythetruelegislatorwillpersuade，and，ifhecannotpersuade，willcompelthepoettoexpress，asheought，byfairandnoblewords，inhisrhythms，thefigures，andinhismelodies，themusicoftemperateandbraveandineverywaygoodmen。
Cle。Butdoyoureallyimagine，Stranger，thatthisisthewayinwhichpoetsgenerallycomposeinStatesatthepresentday？AsfarasIcanobserve，exceptamongusandamongtheLacedaemonians，therearenoregulationslikethoseofwhichyouspeak；inotherplacesnoveltiesarealwaysbeingintroducedindancingandinmusic，generallynotundertheauthorityofanylaw，butattheinstigationoflawlesspleasures；andthesepleasuresaresofarfrombeingthesame，asyoudescribetheEgyptiantobe，orhavingthesameprinciples，thattheyareneverthesame。
Ath。Mosttrue，Cleinias；andIdaresaythatImayhaveexpressedmyselfobscurely，andsoledyoutoimaginethatIwasspeakingofsomereallyexistingstateofthings，whereasIwasonlysayingwhatregulationsIwouldliketohaveaboutmusic；andhencethereoccurredamisapprehensiononyourpart。Forwhenevilsarefargoneandirremediable，thetaskofcensuringthemisneverpleasant，althoughattimesnecessary。Butaswedonotreallydiffer，willyouletmeaskyouwhetheryouconsidersuchinstitutionstobemoreprevalentamongtheCretansandLacedaemoniansthanamongtheotherHellenes？
Cle。Certainlytheyare。
Ath。AndiftheywereextendedtotheotherHellenes，woulditbeanimprovementonthepresentstateofthings？
Cle。Averygreatimprovement，ifthecustomswhichprevailamongthemweresuchasprevailamongusandtheLacedaemonians，andsuchasyouwerejustnowsayingoughttoprevail。
Ath。Letusseewhetherweunderstandoneanother：-Arenottheprinciplesofeducationandmusicwhichprevailamongyouasfollows：youcompelyourpoetstosaythatthegoodman，ifhebetemperateandjust，isfortunateandhappy；andthiswhetherhebegreatandstrongorsmallandweak，andwhetherheberichorpoor；
and，ontheotherhand，ifhehaveawealthpassingthatofCinyrasorMidas，andbeunjust，heiswretchedandlivesinmisery？Asthepoetsays，andwithtruth：Isingnot，Icarenotabouthimwhoaccomplishesallnoblethings，nothavingjustice；lethimwho“drawsnearandstretchesouthishandagainsthisenemiesbeajustman。“Butifhebeunjust，Iwouldnothavehim“lookcalmlyuponbloodydeath，“nor“surpassinswiftnesstheThracianBoreas“；andletnootherthingthatiscalledgoodeverbehis。Forthegoodsofwhichthemanyspeakarenotreallygood：firstinthecatalogueisplacedhealth，beautynext，wealththird；andtheninnumerableothers，asforexampletohaveakeeneyeoraquickear，andingeneraltohaveallthesensesperfect；or，again，tobeatyrantanddoasyoulike；andthefinalconsummationofhappinessistohaveacquiredallthesethings，andwhenyouhaveacquiredthemtobecomeatonceimmortal。ButyouandIsay，thatwhiletothejustandholyallthesethingsarethebestofpossessions，totheunjusttheyareall，includingevenhealth，thegreatestofevils。Forintruth，tohavesight，andhearing，andtheuseofthesenses，ortoliveatallwithoutjusticeandvirtue，eventhoughamanberichinalltheso-calledgoodsoffortune，isthegreatestofevils，iflifebeimmortal；butnotsogreat，ifthebadmanlivesonlyaveryshorttime。Thesearethetruthswhich，ifIamnotmistaken，youwillpersuadeorcompelyourpoetstoutterwithsuitableaccompanimentsofharmonyandrhythm，andinthesetheymusttrainupyouryouth。AmI
notright？ForIplainlydeclarethatevilsastheyaretermedaregoodstotheunjust，andonlyevilstothejust，andthatgoodsaretrulygoodtothegood，buteviltotheevil。Letmeaskagain，AreyouandIagreedaboutthis？
Cle。Ithinkthatwepartlyagreeandpartlydonot。
Ath。Whenamanhashealthandwealthandatyrannywhichlasts，andwhenheispreeminentinstrengthandcourage，andhasthegiftofimmortality，andnoneoftheso-calledevilswhichcounter-balancethesegoods，butonlytheinjusticeandinsolenceofhisownnature-ofsuchanoneyouare，Isuspect，unwillingtobelievethatheismiserableratherthanhappy。
Cle。Thatisquitetrue。
Ath。Oncemore：Supposethathebevaliantandstrong，andhandsomeandrich，anddoesthroughouthiswholelifewhateverhelikes，still，ifhebeunrighteousandinsolent，wouldnotbothofyouagreethathewillofnecessitylivebasely？Youwillsurelygrantsomuch？
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Andanevillifetoo？
Cle。Iamnotequallydisposedtograntthat。
Ath。Willhenotlivepainfullyandtohisowndisadvantage？
Cle。HowcanIpossiblysayso？
Ath。How!ThenmayHeavenmakeustobeofonemind，fornowweareoftwo。Tome，dearCleinias，thetruthofwhatIamsayingisasplainasthefactthatCreteisanisland。And，ifIwerealawgiver，Iwouldtrytomakethepoetsandallthecitizensspeakinthisstrain，andIwouldinflicttheheaviestpenaltiesonanyoneinallthelandwhoshoulddaretosaythattherearebadmenwholeadpleasantlives，orthattheprofitableandgainfulisonething，andthejustanother；andtherearemanyothermattersaboutwhichIshouldmakemycitizensspeakinamannerdifferentfromtheCretansandLacedaemoniansofthisage，andImaysay，indeed，fromtheworldingeneral。Fortellme，mygoodfriends，byZeusandApollotellme，ifIweretoaskthesesameGodswhowereyourlegislators-Isnotthemostjustlifealsothepleasantest？oraretheretwolives，oneofwhichisthejustestandtheotherthepleasantest？-andtheyweretoreplythattherearetwo；andthereuponIproceededtoask，thatwouldbetherightwayofpursuingtheenquiry，Whicharethehappier-thosewholeadthejustest，orthosewholeadthepleasantestlife？andtheyreplied，Thosewholeadthepleasantest-thatwouldbeaverystrangeanswer，whichIshouldnotliketoputintothemouthoftheGods。Thewordswillcomewithmoreproprietyfromthelipsoffathersandlegislators，andthereforeIwillrepeatmyformerquestionstooneofthem，andsupposehimtosayagainthathewholeadsthepleasantestlifeisthehappiest。