Ath。Andwhatwouldyousayofsomeonewhoblamesorpraisesanysortofmeetingwhichisintendedbynaturetohavearuler，andiswellenoughwhenunderhispresidency？Thecritic，however，hasneverseenthesocietymeetingtogetheratanorderlyfeastunderthecontrolofapresident，butalwayswithoutarulerorwithabadone：-whenobserversofthisclasspraiseorblamesuchmeetings，arewetosupposethatwhattheysayisofanyvalue？
Meg。Certainlynot，iftheyhaveneverseenorbeenpresentatsuchameetingwhenrightlyordered。
Ath。Reflect；maynotbanquetersandbanquetsbesaidtoconstituteakindofmeeting？
Meg。Ofcourse。
Ath。Anddidanyoneeverseethissortofconvivialmeetingrightlyordered？Ofcourseyoutwowillanswerthatyouhaveneverseenthematall，becausetheyarenotcustomaryorlawfulinyourcountry；
butIhavecomeacrossmanyoftheminmanydifferentplaces，andmoreoverIhavemadeenquiriesaboutthemwhereverIwent，asImaysay，andneverdidIseeorhearofanythingofthekindwhichwascarriedonaltogetherrightly；insomefewparticularstheymightberight，butingeneraltheywereutterlywrong。
Cle。Whatdoyoumean，Stranger，bythisremark？Explain；Forwe，asyousay，fromourinexperienceinsuchmatters，mightverylikelynotknow，eveniftheycameinourway，whatwasrightorwronginsuchsocieties。
Ath。Likelyenough；thenletmetrytobeyourinstructor：Youwouldacknowledge，wouldyounot，thatinallgatheringsofman，kind，ofwhateversort，thereoughttobealeader？
Cle。CertainlyIshould。
Ath。Andweweresayingjustnow，thatwhenmenareatwartheleaderoughttobeabraveman？
Cle。Wewere。
Ath。Thebravemanislesslikelythanthecowardtobedisturbedbyfears？
Cle。Thatagainistrue。
Ath。Andiftherewereapossibilityofhavingageneralofanarmywhowasabsolutelyfearlessandimperturbable，shouldwenotbyallmeansappointhim？
Cle。Assuredly。
Ath。Now，however，wearespeakingnotofageneralwhoistocommandanarmy，whenfoemeetsfoeintimeofwar，butofonewhoistoregulatemeetingsofanothersort，whenfriendmeetsfriendintimeofpeace。
Cle。True。
Ath。Andthatsortofmeeting，ifattendedwithdrunkenness，isapttobeunquiet。
Cle。Certainly；thereverseofquiet。
Ath。Inthefirstplace，then，therevellersaswellasthesoldierswillrequirearuler？
Cle。Tobesure；nomenmoreso。
Ath。Andweought，ifpossible，toprovidethemwithaquietruler？
Cle。Ofcourse。
Ath。Andheshouldbeamanwhounderstandssociety；forhisdutyistopreservethefriendlyfeelingswhichexistamongthecompanyatthetime，andtoincreasethemforthefuturebyhisuseoftheoccasion。
Cle。Verytrue。
Ath。Mustwenotappointasobermanandawisetobeourmasteroftherevels？Foriftherulerofdrinkersbehimselfyounganddrunken，andnotover-wise，onlybysomespecialgoodfortunewillhebesavedfromdoingsomegreatevil。
Cle。Itwillbebyasingulargoodfortunethatheissaved。
Ath。Nowsupposesuchassociationstobeframedinthebestwaypossibleinstates，andthatsomeoneblamestheveryfactoftheirexistence-hemayverylikelyberight。Butifheblamesapracticewhichheonlyseesverymuchmismanaged，heshowsinthefirstplacethatheisnotawareofthemismanagement，andalsonotawarethateverythingdoneinthiswaywillturnouttobewrong，becausedonewithoutthesuperintendenceofasoberruler。Doyounotseethatadrunkenpilotoradrunkenrulerofanysortwillruinship，chariot，army-anything，inshort，ofwhichhehasthedirection？
Cle。Thelastremarkisverytrue，Stranger；andIseequiteclearlytheadvantageofanarmyhavingagoodleader-hewillgivevictoryinwartohisfollowers，whichisaverygreatadvantage；andsoofotherthings。ButIdonotseeanysimilaradvantagewhicheitherindividualsorstatesgainfromthegoodmanagementofafeast；andIwantyoutotellmewhatgreatgoodwillbeeffected，supposingthatthisdrinkingordinanceisdulyestablished。
Ath。Ifyoumeantoaskwhatgreatgoodaccruestothestatefromtherighttrainingofasingleyouth，orofasinglechorus-whenthequestionisputinthatform，wecannotdenythatthegoodisnotverygreatinanyparticularinstance。Butifyouaskwhatisthegoodofeducationingeneral，theansweriseasy-thateducationmakesgoodmen，andthatgoodmenactnobly，andconquertheirenemiesinbattle，becausetheyaregood。Educationcertainlygivesvictory，althoughvictorysometimesproducesforgetfulnessofeducation；formanyhavegrowninsolentfromvictoryinwar，andthisinsolencehasengenderedintheminnumerableevils；andmanyavictoryhasbeenandwillbesuicidaltothevictors；buteducationisneversuicidal。
Cle。Youseemtoimply，myfriend，thatconvivialmeetings，whenrightlyordered，areanimportantelementofeducation。
Ath。CertainlyIdo。
Cle。Andcanyoushowthatwhatyouhavebeensayingistrue？
Ath。Tobeabsolutelysureofthetruthofmattersconcerningwhichtherearemanyopinions，isanattributeoftheGodsnotgiventoman，Stranger；butIshallbeveryhappytotellyouwhatI
think，especiallyaswearenowproposingtoenteronadiscussionconcerninglawsandconstitutions。
Cle。Youropinion，Stranger，aboutthequestionswhicharenowbeingraised，ispreciselywhatwewanttohear。
Ath。Verygood；Iwilltrytofindawayofexplainingmymeaning，andyoushalltrytohavethegiftofunderstandingme。Butfirstletmemakeanapology。TheAtheniancitizenisreputedamongalltheHellenestobeagreattalker，whereasSpartaisrenownedforbrevity，andtheCretanshavemorewitthanwords。NowIamafraidofappearingtoelicitaverylongdiscourseoutofverysmallmaterials。Fordrinkingindeedmayappeartobeaslightmatter，andyetisonewhichcannotberightlyorderedaccordingtonature，withoutcorrectprinciplesofmusic；thesearenecessarytoanyclearorsatisfactorytreatmentofthesubject，andmusicagainrunsupintoeducationgenerally，andthereismuchtobesaidaboutallthis。Whatwouldyousaythentoleavingthesemattersforthepresent，andpassingontosomeotherquestionoflaw？
Meg。OAthenianStranger，letmetellyouwhatperhapsyoudonotknow，thatourfamilyistheproxenusofyourstate。Iimaginethatfromtheirearliestyouthallboys，whentheyaretoldthattheyaretheproxeniofaparticularstate，feelkindlytowardstheirsecondandthishascertainlybeenmyownfeeling。Icanwellrememberfromthedaysofmyboyhood，how，whenanyLacedaemonianspraisedorblamedtheAthenians，theyusedtosaytome-“See，Megillus，howillorhowwell，“asthecasemightbe，“hasyourstatetreatedus“；andhavingalwayshadtofightyourbattlesagainstdetractorswhenIheardyouassailed，Ibecamewarmlyattachedtoyou。AndIalwaysliketoheartheAtheniantonguespoken；thecommonsayingisquitetrue，thatagoodAthenianismorethanordinarilygood，forheistheonlymanwhoisfreelyandgenuinelygoodbythedivineinspirationofhisownnature，andisnotmanufactured。ThereforebeassuredthatIshallliketohearyousaywhateveryouhavetosay。
Cle。Yes，Stranger；andwhenyouhaveheardmespeak，sayboldlywhatisinyourthoughts。LetmeremindyouofatiewhichunitesyoutoCrete。YoumusthaveheardherethestoryoftheprophetEpimenides，whowasofmyfamily，andcametoAthenstenyearsbeforethePersianwar，inaccordancewiththeresponseoftheOracle，andofferedcertainsacrificeswhichtheGodcommanded。TheAthenianswereatthattimeindreadofthePersianinvasion；andhesaidthatfortenyearstheywouldnotcome，andthatwhentheycame，theywouldgoawayagainwithoutaccomplishinganyoftheirobjects，andwouldsuffermoreevilthantheyinflicted。Atthattimemyforefathersformedtiesofhospitalitywithyou；thusancientisthefriendshipwhichIandmyparentshavehadforyou。
Ath。Youseemtobequitereadytolisten；andIamalsoreadytoperformasmuchasIcanofanalmostimpossibletask，whichIwillneverthelessattempt。Attheoutsetofthediscussion，letmedefinethenatureandpowerofeducation；forthisisthewaybywhichourargumentmusttravelonwardstotheGodDionysus。
Cle。Letusproceed，ifyouplease。
Ath。Well，then，ifItellyouwhataremynotionsofeducation，willyouconsiderwhethertheysatisfyyou？
Cle。Letushear。
Ath。Accordingtomyview，anyonewhowouldbegoodatanythingmustpractisethatthingfromhisyouthupwards，bothinsportandearnest，initsseveralbranches：forexample，hewhoistobeagoodbuilder，shouldplayatbuildingchildren’shouses；hewhoistobeagoodhusbandman，attillingtheground；andthosewhohavethecareoftheireducationshouldprovidethemwhenyoungwithmimictools。Theyshouldlearnbeforehandtheknowledgewhichtheywillafterwardsrequirefortheirart。Forexample，thefuturecarpentershouldlearntomeasureorapplythelineinplay；andthefuturewarriorshouldlearnriding，orsomeotherexercise，foramusement，andtheteachershouldendeavourtodirectthechildren’sinclinationsandpleasures，bythehelpofamusements，totheirfinalaiminlife。Themostimportantpartofeducationisrighttraininginthenursery。Thesoulofthechildinhisplayshouldbeguidedtotheloveofthatsortofexcellenceinwhichwhenhegrowsuptomanhoodhewillhavetobeperfected。Doyouagreewithmethusfar？
Cle。Certainly。