Ath。IwillnotatpresentdeterminewhetherhewhocensurestheCretanorLacedaemonianpolitiesisrightorwrong。ButIbelievethatIcantellbetterthaneitherofyouwhatthemanysayaboutthem。Forassumingthatyouhavereasonablygoodlaws，oneofthebestofthemwillbethelawforbiddinganyyoungmentoenquirewhichofthemarerightorwrong；butwithonemouthandonevoicetheymustallagreethatthelawsareallgood，fortheycamefromGod；andanyonewhosaysthecontraryisnottobelistenedto。Butanoldmanwhoremarksanydefectinyourlawsmaycommunicatehisobservationtoarulerortoanequalinyearswhennoyoungmanispresent。
Cle。Exactlyso，Stranger；andlikeadiviner，althoughnotthereatthetime，youseemtomequitetohavehitthemeaningofthelegislator，andtosaywhatismosttrue。
Ath。Astherearenoyoungmenpresent，andthelegislatorhasgivenoldmenfreelicence，therewillbenoimproprietyinourdiscussingtheseverymattersnowthatwearealone。
Cle。True。Andthereforeyoumaybeasfreeasyoulikeinyourcensureofourlaws，forthereisnodiscreditinknowingwhatiswrong；hewhoreceiveswhatissaidinagenerousandfriendlyspiritwillbeallthebetterforit。
Ath。Verygood；however，IamnotgoingtosayanythingagainstyourlawsuntiltothebestofmyabilityIhaveexaminedthem，butIamgoingtoraisedoubtsaboutthem。Foryouaretheonlypeopleknowntous，whetherGreekorbarbarian，whomthelegislatorcommandedtoeschewallgreatpleasuresandamusementsandnevertotouchthem；
whereasinthematterofpainsorfearswhichwehavejustbeendiscussing，hethoughtthattheywhofrominfancyhadalwaysavoidedpainsandfearsandsorrows，whentheywerecompelledtofacethemwouldrunawayfromthosewhowerehardenedinthem，andwouldbecometheirsubjects。Nowthelegislatoroughttohaveconsideredthatthiswasequallytrueofpleasure；heshouldhavesaidtohimself，thatifourcitizensarefromtheiryouthupwardunacquaintedwiththegreatestpleasures，andunusedtoendureamidthetemptationsofpleasure，andarenotdisciplinedtorefrainfromallthingsevil，thesweetfeelingofpleasurewillovercomethemjustasfearwouldovercometheformerclass；andinanother，andevenaworsemanner，theywillbetheslavesofthosewhoareabletoendureamidpleasures，andhavehadtheopportunityofenjoyingthem，theybeingoftentheworstofmankind。Onehalfoftheirsoulswillbeaslave，theotherhalffree；andtheywillnotbeworthytobecalledinthetruesensemenandfreemen。Tellmewhetheryouassenttomywords？
Cle。Onfirsthearing，whatyousayappearstobethetruth；buttobehastyincomingtoaconclusionaboutsuchimportantmatterswouldbeverychildishandsimple。
Ath。Suppose，CleiniasandMegillus，thatweconsiderthevirtuewhichfollowsnextofthosewhichweintendedtodiscussforaftercouragecomestemperance，whatinstitutionsshallwefindrelatingtotemperance，eitherinCreteorLacedaemon，which，likeyourmilitaryinstitutions，differfromthoseofanyordinarystate。
Meg。Thatisnotaneasyquestiontoanswer；stillIshouldsaythatthecommonmealsandgymnasticexerciseshavebeenexcellentlydevisedforthepromotionbothoftemperanceandcourage。
Ath。Thereseemstobeadifficulty，Stranger，withregardtostates，inmakingwordsandfactscoincidesothattherecanbenodisputeaboutthem。Asinthehumanbody，theregimenwhichdoesgoodinonewaydoesharminanother；andwecanhardlysaythatanyonecourseoftreatmentisadaptedtoaparticularconstitution。Nowthegymnasiaandcommonmealsdoagreatdealofgood，andyettheyareasourceofevilinciviltroubles；asisshowninthecaseoftheMilesian，andBoeotian，andThurianyouth，amongwhomtheseinstitutionsseemalwaystohavehadatendencytodegradetheancientandnaturalcustomoflovebelowthelevel，notonlyofman，butofthebeasts。Thechargemaybefairlybroughtagainstyourcitiesaboveallothers，andistruealsoofmostotherstateswhichespeciallycultivategymnastics。Whethersuchmattersaretoberegardedjestinglyorseriously，Ithinkthatthepleasureistobedeemednaturalwhicharisesoutoftheintercoursebetweenmenandwomen；butthattheintercourseofmenwithmen，orofwomenwithwomen，iscontrarytonature，andthattheboldattemptwasoriginallyduetounbridledlust。TheCretansarealwaysaccusedofhavinginventedthestoryofGanymedeandZeusbecausetheywantedtojustifythemselvesintheenjoymentofunnaturalpleasuresbythepracticeofthegodwhomtheybelievetohavebeentheirlawgiver。Leavingthestory，wemayobservethatanyspeculationaboutlawsturnsalmostentirelyonpleasureandpain，bothinstatesandinindividuals：
thesearetwofountainswhichnatureletsflow，andhewhodrawsfromthemwhereandwhen，andasmuchasheought，ishappy；andthisholdsofmenandanimals-ofindividualsaswellasstates；andhewhoindulgesinthemignorantlyandatthewrongtime，isthereverseofhappy。
Meg。Iadmit，Stranger，thatyourwordsarewellspoken，andI
hardlyknowwhattosayinanswertoyou；butstillIthinkthattheSpartanlawgiverwasquiterightinforbiddingpleasure。OftheCretanlaws，IshallleavethedefencetomyCnosianfriend。ButthelawsofSparta，inasfarastheyrelatetopleasure，appeartometobethebestintheworld；forthatwhichleadsmankindingeneralintothewildestpleasureandlicence，andeveryotherfolly，thelawhascleandrivenout；andneitherinthecountrynorintownswhichareunderthecontrolofSparta，willyoufindrevelriesandthemanyincitementsofeverykindofpleasurewhichaccompanythem；andanyonewhomeetsadrunkenanddisorderlyperson，willimmediatelyhavehimmostseverelypunished，andwillnotlethimoffonanypretence，notevenatthetimeofaDionysiacfestival；althoughI
haveremarkedthatthismayhappenatyourperformances“onthecart，“
astheyarecalled；andamongourTarentinecolonistsIhaveseenthewholecitydrunkataDionysiacfestival；butnothingofthesorthappensamongus。
Ath。OLacedaemonianStranger，thesefestivitiesarepraiseworthywherethereisaspiritofendurance，butareverysenselesswhentheyareundernoregulations。Inordertoretaliate，anAthenianhasonlytopointoutthelicencewhichexistsamongyourwomen。Toallsuchaccusations，whethertheyarebroughtagainsttheTarentines，orus，oryou，thereisoneanswerwhichexoneratesthepracticeinquestionfromimpropriety。Whenastrangerexpresseswonderatthesingularityofwhathesees，anyinhabitantwillnaturallyanswerhim：-Wondernot，Ostranger；thisisourcustom，andyoumayverylikelyhavesomeothercustomaboutthesamethings。Nowwearespeaking，myfriends，notaboutmeningeneral，butaboutthemeritsanddefectsofthelawgiversthemselves。Letusthendiscoursealittlemoreatlengthaboutintoxication，whichisaveryimportantsubject，andwillseriouslytaskthediscriminationofthelegislator。
Iamnotspeakingofdrinking，ornotdrinking，wineatall，butofintoxication。ArewetofollowthecustomoftheScythians，andPersians，andCarthaginians，andCelts，andIberians，andThracians，whoareallwarlikenations，orthatofyourcountrymen，forthey，asyousay，altogetherabstain？ButtheScythiansandThracians，bothmenandwomen，drinkunmixedwine，whichtheypourontheirgarments，andthistheythinkahappyandgloriousinstitution。ThePersians，again，aremuchgiventootherpracticesofluxurywhichyoureject，buttheyhavemoremoderationinthemthantheThraciansandScythians。
Meg。Obestofmen，wehaveonlytotakearmsintoourhands，andwesendallthesenationsflyingbeforeus。
Ath。Nay，mygoodfriend，donotsaythat；therehavebeen，astherealwayswillbe，flightsandpursuitsofwhichnoaccountcanbegiven，andthereforewecannotsaythatvictoryordefeatinbattleaffordsmorethanadoubtfulproofofthegoodnessorbadnessofinstitutions。
Forwhenthegreaterstatesconquerandenslavethelesser，astheSyracusanshavedonetheLocrians，whoappeartobethebest-governedpeopleintheirpartoftheworld，orastheAthenianshavedonetheCeansandtherearetenthousandotherinstancesofthesamesortofthing，allthisisnottothepoint；letusendeavourrathertoformaconclusionabouteachinstitutioninitselfandsaynothing，atpresent，ofvictoriesanddefeats。Letusonlysaythatsuchandsuchacustomishonourable，andanothernot。Andfirstpermitmetotellyouhowgoodandbadaretobeestimatedinreferencetotheseverymatters。
Meg。Howdoyoumean？
Ath。Allthosewhoarereadyatamoment’snoticetopraiseorcensureanypracticewhichismatterofdiscussion，seemtometoproceedinawrongway。LetmegiveyouanillustrationofwhatI
mean：-Youmaysupposeapersontobepraisingwheatasagoodkindoffood，whereuponanotherpersoninstantlyblameswheat，withouteverenquiringintoitseffectoruse，orinwhatway，ortowhom，orwithwhat，orinwhatstateandhow，wheatistobegiven。Andthatisjustwhatwearedoinginthisdiscussion。Attheverymentionofthewordintoxication，onesideisreadywiththeirpraisesandtheotherwiththeircensures；whichisabsurd。Foreithersideadducetheirwitnessesandapprovers，andsomeofusthinkthatwespeakwithauthoritybecausewehavemanywitnesses；andothersbecausetheyseethosewhoabstainconqueringinbattle，andthisagainisdisputedbyus。NowIcannotsaythatIshallbesatisfied，ifwegoondiscussingeachoftheremaininglawsinthesameway。AndaboutthisverypointofintoxicationIshouldliketospeakinanotherway，whichIholdtobetherightone；forifnumberistobethecriterion，aretherenotmyriadsuponmyriadsofnationsreadytodisputethepointwithyou，whoareonlytwocities？
Meg。Ishallgladlywelcomeanymethodofenquirywhichisright。
Ath。Letmeputthematterthus：-Supposeapersontopraisethekeepingofgoats，andthecreaturesthemselvesascapitalthingstohave，andthensomeonewhohadseengoatsfeedingwithoutagoatherdincultivatedspots，anddoingmischief，weretocensureagoatoranyotheranimalwhohasnokeeper，orabadkeeper，wouldtherebeanysenseorjusticeinsuchcensure？
Meg。Certainlynot。
Ath。Doesacaptainrequireonlytohavenauticalknowledgeinordertobeagoodcaptain，whetherheissea-sickornot？Whatdoyousay？
Meg。Isaythatheisnotagoodcaptainif，althoughhehavenauticalskill，heisliabletosea-sickness。
Ath。Andwhatwouldyousayofthecommanderofanarmy？Willhebeabletocommandmerelybecausehehasmilitaryskillifhebeacoward，who，whendangercomes，issickanddrunkwithfear？
Meg。Impossible。
Ath。Andwhatifbesidesbeingacowardhehasnoskill？
Meg。Heisamiserablefellow，notfittobeacommanderofmen，butonlyofoldwomen。