letussupposeourselvestoselectsomeoneofthem，andgentlyreasonwithhim，smotheringouranger：-Omyson，wewillsaytohim，youareyoung，andtheadvanceoftimewillmakeyoureversemayoftheopinionswhichyounowhold。Waitawhile，anddonotattempttojudgeatpresentofthehighestthings；andthatisthehighestofwhichyounowthinknothing-toknowtheGodsrightlyandtoliveaccordingly。Andinthefirstplaceletmeindicatetoyouonepointwhichisofgreatimportance，andaboutwhichIcannotbedeceived：-YouandyourfriendsarenotthefirstwhohaveheldthisopinionabouttheGods。Therehavealwaysbeenpersonsmoreorlessnumerouswhohavehadthesamedisorder。Ihaveknownmanyofthem，andcantellyou，thatnoonewhohadtakenupinyouththisopinion，thattheGodsdonotexist，evercontinuedinthesameuntilhewasold；thetwoothernotionscertainlydocontinueinsomecases，butnotinmany；thenotion，Imean，thattheGodsexist，buttakenoheedofhumanthings，andtheothernotionthattheydotakeheedofthem，butareeasilypropitiatedwithsacrificesandprayers。AstotheopinionabouttheGodswhichmaysomedaybecomecleartoyou，Iadviseyougowaitandconsiderifitbetrueornot；askofothers，andaboveallofthelegislator。
InthemeantimetakecarethatyoudonotoffendagainsttheGods。Forthedutyofthelegislatorisandalwayswillbetoteachyouthetruthofthesematters。
Cle。Ouraddress，Stranger，thusfar，isexcellent。
Ath。Quitetrue，MegillusandCleinias，butIamafraidthatwehaveunconsciouslylightedonastrangedoctrine。
Cle。Whatdoctrinedoyoumean？
Ath。Thewisestofalldoctrines，intheopinionofmany。
Cle。Iwishthatyouwouldspeakplainer。
Ath。Thedoctrinethatallthingsdobecome，havebecome，andwillbecome，somebynature，somebyart，andsomebychance。
Cle。Isnotthattrue？
Ath。Well，philosophersareprobablyright；atanyratewemayaswellfollowintheirtrack，andexaminewhatisthemeaningofthemandtheirdisciples。
Cle。Byallmeans。
Ath。Theysaythatthegreatestandfairestthingsaretheworkofnatureandofchance，thelesserofart，which，receivingfromnaturethegreaterandprimevalcreations，mouldsandfashionsallthoselesserworkswhicharegenerallytermedartificial。
Cle。Howisthat？
Ath。Iwillexplainmymeaningstillmoreclearly。Theysaythatfireandwater，andearthandair，allexistbynatureandchance，andnoneofthembyart，andthatastothebodieswhichcomenextinorder-earth，andsun，andmoon，andstars-theyhavebeencreatedbymeansoftheseabsolutelyinanimateexistences。Theelementsareseverallymovedbychanceandsomeinherentforceaccordingtocertainaffinitiesamongthem-ofhotwithcold，orofdrywithmoist，orofsoftwithhard，andaccordingtoalltheotheraccidentaladmixturesofoppositeswhichhavebeenformedbynecessity。Afterthisfashionandinthismannerthewholeheavenhasbeencreated，andallthatisintheheaven，aswellasanimalsandallplants，andalltheseasonscomefromtheseelements，notbytheactionofmind，astheysay，orofanyGod，orfromart，butasIwassaying，bynatureandchanceonly。Artsprangupafterwardsandoutofthese，mortalandofmortalbirth，andproducedinplaycertainimagesandverypartialimitationsofthetruth，havinganaffinitytooneanother，suchasmusicandpaintingcreateandtheircompanionarts。Andthereareotherartswhichhaveaseriouspurpose，andtheseco-operatewithnature，such，forexample，asmedicine，andhusbandry，andgymnastic。Andtheysaythatpoliticscooperatewithnature，butinalessdegree，andhavemoreofart；alsothatlegislationisentirelyaworkofart，andisbasedonassumptionswhicharenottrue。
Cle。Howdoyoumean？
Ath。Inthefirstplace，mydearfriend，thesepeoplewouldsaythattheGodsexistnotbynature，butbyart，andbythelawsofstates，whicharedifferentindifferentplaces，accordingtotheagreementofthosewhomakethem；andthatthehonourableisonethingbynatureandanotherthingbylaw，andthattheprinciplesofjusticehavenoexistenceatallinnature，butthatmankindarealwaysdisputingaboutthemandalteringthem；andthatthealterationswhicharemadebyartandbylawhavenobasisinnature，butareofauthorityforthemomentandatthetimeatwhichtheyaremade-These，myfriends，arethesayingsofwisemen，poetsandprosewriters，whichfindawayintothemindsofyouth。Theyaretoldbythemthatthehighestrightismight，andinthiswaytheyoungfallintoimpieties，undertheideathattheGodsarenotsuchasthelawbidsthemimagine；andhencearisefactions，thesephilosophersinvitingthemtoleadatruelifeaccordingtonature，thatis，toliveinrealdominionoverothers，andnotinlegalsubjectiontothem。
Cle。Whatadreadfulpicture，Stranger，haveyougiven，andhowgreatistheinjurywhichisthusinflictedonyoungmentotheruinbothofstatesandfamilies!
Ath。True，Cleinias；butthenwhatshouldthelawgiverdowhenthisevilisoflongstanding？shouldheonlyriseupinthestateandthreatenallmankind，proclaimingthatiftheywillnotsayandthinkthattheGodsaresuchasthelawordainsandthismaybeextendedgenerallytothehonourable，thejust，andtoallthehighestthings，andtoallthatrelatestovirtueandvice，andiftheywillnotmaketheiractionsconformtothecopywhichthelawgivesthem，thenhewhorefusestoobeythelawshalldie，orsufferstripesandbonds，orprivationofcitizenship，orinsomecasesbepunishedbylossofpropertyandexile？Shouldhenotrather，whenheismakinglawsformen，atthesametimeinfusethespiritofpersuasionintohiswords，andmitigatetheseverityofthemasfarashecan？
Cle。Why，Stranger，ifsuchpersuasionbeatallpossible，thenalegislatorwhohasanythinginhimoughtnevertowearyofpersuadingmen；heoughttoleavenothingunsaidinsupportoftheancientopinionthatthereareGods，andofallthoseothertruthswhichyouwerejustnowmentioning；heoughttosupportthelawandalsoart，andacknowledgethatbothalikeexistbynature，andnolessthannature，iftheyarethecreationsofmindinaccordancewithrightreason，youappeartometomaintain，andIamdisposedtoagreewithyouinthinking。
Ath。Yes，myenthusiasticCleinias；butarenotthesethingswhenspokentoamultitudehardtobeunderstood，nottomentionthattheytakeupadismallengthoftime？
Cle。Why，Stranger，shallwe，whosepatiencefailednotwhendrinkingormusicwerethethemesofdiscourse，wearynowofdiscoursingabouttheGods，andaboutdivinethings？Andthegreatesthelptorationallegislationisthatthelawswhenoncewrittendownarealwaysatrest；theycanbeputtothetestatanyfuturetime，andtherefore，ifonfirsthearingtheyseemdifficult，thereisnoreasonforapprehensionaboutthem，becauseanymanhoweverdullcangooverthemandconsiderthemagainandagain；noriftheyaretediousbutuseful，isthereanyreasonorreligion，asitseemstome，inanymanrefusingtomaintaintheprinciplesofthemtotheutmostofhispower。
Megillus。Stranger，IlikewhatCleiniasissaying。
Ath。Yes，Megillus，andweshoulddoasheproposes；forifimpiousdiscourseswerenotscattered，asImaysay，throughouttheworld，therewouldhavebeennoneedforanyvindicationoftheexistenceoftheGods-butseeingthattheyarespreadfarandwide，suchargumentsareneeded；andwhoshouldcometotherescueofthegreatestlaws，whentheyarebeingunderminedbybadmen，butthelegislatorhimself？
Meg。Thereisnomoreproperchampionofthem。
Ath。Well，then，tellme，Cleinias-forImustaskyoutobemypartner-doesnothewhotalksinthiswayconceivefireandwaterandearthandairtobethefirstelementsofallthings？Thesehecallsnature，andoutofthesehesupposesthesoultobeformedafterwards；andthisisnotamereconjectureofoursabouthismeaning，butiswhathereallymeans。
Cle。Verytrue。
Ath。Then，byHeaven，wehavediscoveredthesourceofthisvainopinionofallthosephysicalinvestigators；andIwouldhaveyouexaminetheirargumentswiththeutmostcare，fortheirimpietyisaveryseriousmatter；theynotonlymakeabadandmistakenuseofargument，buttheyleadawaythemindsofothers：thatismyopinionofthem。
Cle。Youareright；butIshouldliketoknowhowthishappens。
Ath。Ifearthattheargumentmayseemsingular。
Cle。Donothesitate，Stranger；Iseethatyouareafraidofsuchadiscussioncarryingyoubeyondthelimitsoflegislation。ButiftherebenootherwayofshowingouragreementinthebeliefthatthereareGods，ofwhomthelawissaidnowtoapprove，letustakethisway，mygoodsir。
Ath。ThenIsupposethatImustrepeatthesingularargumentofthosewhomanufacturethesoulaccordingtotheirownimpiousnotions；
theyaffirmthatwhichisthefirstcauseofthegenerationanddestructionofallthings，tobenotfirst，butlast，andthatwhichislasttobefirst，andhencetheyhavefallenintoerroraboutthetruenatureoftheGods。
Cle。StillIdonotunderstandyou。
Ath。Nearlyallofthem，myfriends，seemtobeignorantofthenatureandpowerofthesoul，especiallyinwhatrelatestoherorigin：theydonotknowthatsheisamongthefirstofthings，andbeforeallbodies，andisthechiefauthoroftheirchangesandtranspositions。Andifthisistrue，andifthesoulisolderthanthebody，mustnotthethingswhichareofthesoul’skindredbeofnecessitypriortothosewhichappertaintothebody？
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Thenthoughtandattentionandmindandartandlawwillbepriortothatwhichishardandsoftandheavyandlight；andthegreatandprimitiveworksandactionswillbeworksofart；theywillbethefirst，andafterthemwillcomenatureandworksofnature，whichhoweverisawrongtermformentoapplytothem；
thesewillfollow，andwillbeunderthegovernmentofartandmind。
Cle。Butwhyistheword“nature“wrong？
Ath。Becausethosewhousethetermmeantosaythatnatureisthefirstcreativepower；butifthesoulturnouttobetheprimevalelement，andnotfireorair，theninthetruestsenseandbeyondotherthingsthesoulmaybesaidtoexistbynature；andthiswouldbetrueifyouprovedthatthesoulisolderthanthebody，butnototherwise。
Cle。Youarequiteright。
Ath。Shallwe，then，takethisasthenextpointtowhichourattentionshouldbedirected？
Cle。Byallmeans。
Ath。Letusbeonourguardlestthismostdeceptiveargumentwithitsyouthfullooks，beguilingusoldmen，giveustheslipandmakealaughing-stockofus。Whoknowsbutwemaybeaimingatthegreater，andfailofattainingthelesser？Supposethatwethreehavetopassarapidriver，andI，beingtheyoungestofthethreeandexperiencedinrivers，takeuponmethedutyofmakingtheattemptfirstbymyself；
leavingyouinsafetyonthebank，Iamtoexaminewhethertheriverispassablebyoldermenlikeyourselves，andifsuchappearstobethecasethenIshallinviteyoutofollow，andmyexperiencewillhelptoconveyyouacross；butiftheriverisimpassablebyyou，thentherewillhavebeennodangertoanybodybutmyself-wouldnotthatseemtobeaveryfairproposal？Imeantosaythattheargumentinprospectislikelytobetoomuchforyou，outofyourdepthandbeyondyourstrength，andIshouldbeafraidthatthestreamofmyquestionsmightcreateinyouwhoarenotinthehabitofanswering，giddinessandconfusionofmind，andhenceafeelingofunpleasantnessandunsuitablenessmightarise。IthinkthereforethatIhadbetterfirstaskthequestionsandthenanswerthemmyselfwhileyoulisteninsafety；inthatwayIcancarryontheargumentuntilIhavecompletedtheproofthatthesoulispriortothebody。
Cle。Excellent，Stranger，andIhopethatyouwilldoasyoupropose。