Ath。Butiftheyareabsolutelyincommensurable，andyetallofusregardthemascommensurable，havewenotreasontobeashamedofourcompatriots；andmightwenotsaytothem：-OyebestofHellenes，isnotthisoneofthethingsofwhichweweresayingthatnottoknowthemisdisgraceful，andofwhichtohaveabareknowledgeonlyisnogreatdistinction？
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Andthereareotherthingsakintothese，inwhichtherespringupothererrorsofthesamefamily。
Cle。Whatarethey？
Ath。Thenaturesofcommensurableandincommensurablequantitiesintheirrelationtooneanother。Amanwhoisgoodforathingoughttobeable，whenhethinks，todistinguishthem；anddifferentpersonsshouldcompetewithoneanotherinaskingquestions，whichwillbeafair，betterandmoregracefulwayofpassingtheirtimethantheoldman’sgameofdraughts。
Cle。Idaresay；andthesepastimesarenotsoveryunlikeagameofdraughts。
Ath。Andthese，asImaintain，Cleinias，arethestudieswhichouryouthoughttolearn，fortheyareinnocentandnotdifficult；thelearningofthemwillbeanamusement，andtheywillbenefitthestate。Ifanyoneisofanothermind，lethimsaywhathehastosay。
Cle。Certainly。
Ath。Thenifthesestudiesaresuchaswemaintainwewillincludethem；ifnot，theyshallbeexcluded。
Cle。Assuredly：butmaywenotnow，Stranger，prescribethesestudiesasnecessary，andsofillupthelacunaeofourlaws？
Ath。Theyshallberegardedaspledgeswhichmaybehereafterredeemedandremovedfromourstate，iftheydonotpleaseeitheruswhogivethem，oryouwhoacceptthem。
Cle。Afaircondition。
Ath。Nextletusseewhetherweareorarenotwillingthatthestudyofastronomyshallbeproposedforouryouth。
Cle。Proceed。
Ath。Hereoccursastrangephenomenon，whichcertainlycannotinanypointofviewbetolerated。
Cle。Towhatareyoureferring？
Ath。MensaythatweoughtnottoenquireintothesupremeGodandthenatureoftheuniverse，norbusyourselvesinsearchingoutthecausesofthings，andthatsuchenquiriesareimpious；whereastheveryoppositeisthetruth。
Cle。Whatdoyoumean？
Ath。PerhapswhatIamsayingmayseemparadoxical，andatvariancewiththeusuallanguageofage。ButwhenanyonehasanygoodandtruenotionwhichisfortheadvantageofthestateandineverywayacceptabletoGod，hecannotabstainfromexpressingit。
Cle。Yourwordsarereasonableenough；butshallwefindanygoodortruenotionaboutthestars？
Ath。Mygoodfriends，atthishourallofusHellenestelllies，ifImayusesuchanexpression，aboutthosegreatGods，theSunandtheMoon。
Cle。Liesofwhatnature？
Ath。Wesaythattheyanddiversotherstarsdonotkeepthesamepath，andwecallthemplanetsorwanderers。
Cle。Verytrue，Stranger；andinthecourseofmylifeIhaveoftenmyselfseenthemorningstarandtheeveningstaranddiversothersnotmovingintheiraccustomedcourse，butwanderingoutoftheirpathinallmannerofways，andIhaveseenthesunandmoondoingwhatweallknowthattheydo。
Ath。Justso，MegillusandCleinias；andImaintainthatourcitizensandouryouthoughttolearnaboutthenatureoftheGodsinheaven，sofarastobeabletooffersacrificesandpraytotheminpiouslanguage，andnottoblasphemeaboutthem。
Cle。Thereyouarerightifsuchaknowledgebeonlyattainable；andifwearewronginourmodeofspeakingnow，andcanbebetterinstructedandlearntousebetterlanguage，thenIquiteagreewithyouthatsuchadegreeofknowledgeaswillenableustospeakrightlyshouldbeacquiredbyus。Andnowdoyoutrytoexplaintousyourwholemeaning，andwe，onourpart，willendeavourtounderstandyou。
Ath。Thereissomedifficultyinunderstandingmymeaning，butnotaverygreatone，norwillanygreatlengthoftimeberequired。AndofthisIammyselfaproof；forIdidnotknowthesethingslongago，norinthedaysofmyyouth，andyetIcanexplainthemtoyouinabriefspaceoftime；whereasiftheyhadbeendifficultIcouldcertainlyneverhaveexplainedthemall，oldasIam，tooldmenlikeyourselves。
Cle。True；butwhatisthisstudywhichyoudescribeaswonderfulandfittingforyouthtolearn，butofwhichweareignorant？Tryandexplainthenatureofittousasclearlyasyoucan。
Ath。Iwill。For，Omygoodfriends，thatotherdoctrineaboutthewanderingofthesunandthemoonandtheotherstarsisnotthetruth，buttheveryreverseofthetruth。Eachofthemmovesinthesamepath-notinmanypaths，butinoneonly，whichiscircular，andthevarietiesareonlyapparent。Norarewerightinsupposingthattheswiftestofthemistheslowest，norconversely，thattheslowestisthequickest。AndifwhatIsayistrue，onlyjustimaginethatwehadasimilarnotionabouthorsesrunningatOlympia，oraboutmenwhoraninthelongcourse，andthatweaddressedtheswiftestastheslowestandtheslowestastheswiftest，andsangthepraisesofthevanquishedasthoughhewerethevictor，-inthatcaseourpraiseswouldnotbetrue，norveryagreeabletotherunners，thoughtheybebutmen；andnow，tocommitthesameerrorabouttheGodswhichwouldhavebeenludicrousanderroneousinthecaseofmen-isnotthatludicrousanderroneous？
Cle。Worsethanludicrous，Ishouldsay。
Ath。Atallevents，theGodscannotlikeustobespreadingafalsereportofthem。
Cle。Mosttrue，ifsuchisthefact。
Ath。Andifwecanshowthatsuchisreallythefact，thenallthesemattersoughttobelearnedsofarasisnecessaryfortheavoidanceofimpiety；butifwecannot，theymaybeletalone，andletthisbeourdecision。
Cle。Verygood。
Ath。Enoughoflawsrelatingtoeducationandlearning。Buthuntingandsimilarpursuitsinlikemannerclaimourattention。Forthelegislatorappearstohaveadutyimposeduponhimwhichgoesbeyondmerelegislation。Thereissomethingoverandabovelawwhichliesinaregionbetweenadmonitionandlaw，andhasseveraltimesoccurredtousinthecourseofdiscussion；forexample，intheeducationofveryyoungchildrentherewerethings，aswemaintain，whicharenottobedefined，andtoregardthemasmattersofpositivelawisagreatabsurdity。Now，ourlawsandthewholeconstitutionofourstatehavingbeenthusdelineated，thepraiseofthevirtuouscitizenisnotcompletewhenheisdescribedasthepersonwhoservesthelawsbestandobeysthemmost，butthehigherformofpraiseisthatwhichdescribeshimasthegoodcitizenwhopassesthroughlifeundefiledandisobedienttothewordsofthelegislator，bothwhenheisgivinglawsandwhenheassignspraiseandblame。Thisisthetruestwordthatcanbespokeninpraiseofacitizen；andthetruelegislatoroughtnotonlytowritehislaws，butalsotointerweavewiththemallsuchthingsasseemtohimhonourableanddishonourable。Andtheperfectcitizenoughttoseektostrengthenthesenolessthantheprinciplesoflawwhicharesanctionedbypunishments。Iwilladduceanexamplewhichwillclearupmymeaning，andwillbeasortofwitnesstomywords。Huntingisofwideextent，andhasanameunderwhichmanythingsareincluded，forthereisahuntingofcreaturesinthewater，andofcreaturesintheair，andthereisagreatdealofhuntingoflandanimalsofallkinds，andnotofwildbeastsonly。Thehuntingaftermanisalsoworthyofconsideration；thereisthehuntingafterhiminwar，andthereisoftenahuntingafterhiminthewayoffriendship，whichispraisedandalsoblamed；andthereisthieving，andthehuntingwhichispractisedbyrobbers，andthatofarmiesagainstarmies。Nowthelegislator，inlayingdownlawsabouthunting，canneitherabstainfromnotingthesethings，norcanhemakethreateningordinanceswhichwillassignrulesandpenaltiesaboutallofthem。Whatishetodo？
Hewillhavetopraiseandblamehuntingwithaviewtotheexerciseandpursuitsofyouth。And，ontheotherhand，theyoungmanmustlistenobediently；neitherpleasurenorpainshouldhinderhim，andheshouldregardashisstandardofactionthepraisesandinjunctionsofthelegislatorratherthanthepunishmentswhichheimposesbylaw。
Thisbeingpremised，therewillfollownextinordermoderatepraiseandcensureofhunting；thepraisebeingassignedtothatkindwhichwillmakethesoulsofyoungmenbetter，andthecensuretothatwhichhastheoppositeeffect。
Andnowletusaddressyoungmenintheformofaprayerfortheirwelfare：Ofriends，wewillsaytothem，maynodesireorloveofhuntinginthesea，orofanglingorofcatchingthecreaturesinthewaters，evertakepossessionofyou，eitherwhenyouareawakeorwhenyouareasleep，byhookorwithweels，whichlatterisaverylazycontrivance；andletnotanydesireofcatchingmenandofpiracybyseaenterintoyoursoulsandmakeyoucruelandlawlesshunters。Andastothedesireofthievingintownorcountry，mayitneverenterintoyourmostpassingthoughts；norlettheinsidiousfancyofcatchingbirds，whichishardlyworthyoffreemen，comeintotheheadofanyyouth。Thereremainsthereforeforourathletesonlythehuntingandcatchingoflandanimals，ofwhichtheonesortiscalledhuntingbynight，inwhichthehunterssleepinturnandarelazy；thisisnottobecommendedanymorethanthatwhichhasintervalsofrest，inwhichthewillstrengthofbeastsissubduedbynetsandsnares，andnotbythevictoryofalaboriousspirit。
Thus，onlythebestkindofhuntingisallowedatall-thatofquadrupeds，whichiscarriedonwithhorsesanddogsandmen’sownpersons，andtheygetthevictoryovertheanimalsbyrunningthemdownandstrikingthemandhurlingatthem，thosewhohaveacareofgodlikemanhoodtakingthemwiththeirownhands。Thepraiseandblamewhichisassignedtoallthesethingshasnowbeendeclared；andletthelawbeasfollows：-Letnoonehinderthesewhoverilyaresacredhuntersfromfollowingthechasewhereverandwhithersoevertheywill；butthehunterbynight，whotruststohisnetsandgins，shallnotbeallowedtohuntanywhere。Thefowlerinthemountainsandwasteplacesshallbepermitted，butoncultivatedgroundandonconsecratedwildsheshallnotbepermitted；andanyonewhomeetshimmaystophim。Astothehunterinwaters，hemayhuntanywhereexceptinharboursorsacredstreamsormarshesorpools，providedonlythathedonotpollutethewaterwithpoisonousjuices。Andnowwemaysaythatallourenactmentsabouteducationarecomplete。
Cle。Verygood。
BOOKVIII
AthenianStranger。Next，withthehelpoftheDelphianoracle，wehavetoinstitutefestivalsandmakelawsaboutthem，andtodeterminewhatsacrificeswillbeforthegoodofthecity，andtowhatGodstheyshallbeoffered；butwhentheyshallbeoffered，andhowoften，maybepartlyregulatedbyus。
Cleinias。Thenumber-yes。
Ath。Thenwewillfirstdeterminethenumber；andletthewholenumberbe365-oneforeveryday-sothatonemagistrateatleastwillsacrificedailytosomeGodordemi-godonbehalfofthecity，andthecitizens，andtheirpossessions。Andtheinterpreters，andpriests，andpriestesses，andprophetsshallmeet，and，incompanywiththeguardiansofthelaw，ordainthosethingswhichthelegislatorofnecessityomits；andImayremarkthattheyaretheverypersonswhooughttotakenoteofwhatisomitted。ThelawwillsaythattherearetwelvefeastsdedicatedtothetwelveGods，afterwhomtheseveraltribesarenamed；andthattoeachofthemtheyshallsacrificeeverymonth，andappointchoruses，andmusicalandgymnasticcontests，assigningthemsoastosuittheGodsandseasonsoftheyear。Andtheyshallhavefestivalsforwomen，distinguishingthosewhichoughttobeseparatedfromthemen’sfestivals，andthosewhichoughtnot。Further，theyshallnotconfusetheinfernaldeitiesandtheirriteswiththeGodswhoaretermedheavenlyandtheirrites，butshallseparatethem，givingtoPlutohisowninthetwelfthmonth，whichissacredtohim，accordingtothelaw。Tosuchadeitywarlikemenshouldentertainnoaversion，buttheyshouldhonourhimasbeingalwaysthebestfriendofman。Fortheconnectionofsoulandbodyisnowaybetterthanthedissolutionofthem，asIamreadytomaintainquiteseriously。Moreover，thosewhowouldregulatethesemattersrightlyshouldconsider，thatourcityamongexistingcitieshasfellow，eitherinrespectofleisureorcominandofthenecessariesoflife，andthatlikeanindividualsheoughttolivehappily。Andthosewhowouldlivehappilyshouldinthefirstplacedonowrongtooneanother，andoughtnotthemselvestobewrongedbyothers；toattainthefirstisnotdifficult，butthereisgreatdifficulty，inacquiringthepowerofnotbeingwronged。Nomancanbeperfectlysecureagainstwrong，unlesshehasbecomeperfectlygood；